sagawizard ([info]sagawizard) wrote,
@ 2008-03-19 17:13:00
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Reflections as we begin year six
/

About to head off to yet another antiwar protest on this, the eve of the fifth anniversary of the Iraq War.

Five years after Congress handed President Bush a blank check for war, we've:

- spent 506 BILLION dollars on this war, money not even factored into our normal military budget, borrowed from China or social security or anywhere else Bush could find it

- lost 3900 us soldiers in combat, not to mention 29,000 soldiers wounded, not to mention the tens of thousands more who are psychologically scarred.

- lost somewhere between 85,000 and 100,000 Iraqi lives, created 2 million refugees

- sparked a spinoff war between Turkey and the Iraqi Kurds

- found NO weapons of mass destruction

- found NO pre-existing links to Al Qaeda prior to the invasion, but plenty who have set up shop since

- found our economy headed into a tailspin, inflation on the rise, and fuel and food costs soaring

And what have we gained?

-We kicked one dictator out of power, and let dozens if not hundreds of small terrorist cells set up shop in his place

-We gave Iraqis a pseudo-democracy at the cost of stability, safety and health

-Halliburton and Bechtel stock have soared

-Worldwide anger at America is at a record high

-We feel, not safer from terrorism, but more at risk than ever

State of the antiwar movement

The antiwar movement has had some impressive victories: over the course of those five years, beginning with NO ONE on their side - not either political party, not the media - we organized, formed internet groups like MoveOn.Org and TrueMajority that were wildly successful in turning public opinion around, in doing the nuts-and-bolts work that gave the Democrats a congressional victory in 2006 and have been converting polling places away from electronic ballots across the country. Groups like the ACLU have been challenging Bush's illegal overreaches of power as fast as Congress can rush to legalize them.

But in another way, we're failing miserably: the Democrats, who we are responsible for electing, have turned their backs on us. They have consistently refused to take any real efforts to bring an end to the war, content to propose plans and swallow vetos with no thought of fillibusters or maneuverings. They have ignored their mandate, and they are paying for it - MoveOn has had success in several races getting incumbent, pro-war democrats ousted in the primaries in favor of diehard antiwar candidates.

There is hope. While John McCain is firmly behind 100 more years in Iraq , Obama and Clinton are at least TALKING a good game about ending the war. They are at least presenting, on the surface of things, a real choice for American voters in this regard. They might even accomplish it, but only if we continue to put pressure on them.

The message opposing them has changed from "Saddam is gonna get you" to "support the troops" to "we can't pull out now, there'd be chaos", which is true only in that there'll be chaos WHENEVER we pull out, now or 10 years from now. We got a larger number of troops out of Vietnam in a matter of weeks, and within two decades Vietnam is stable and their economy's looking better than ours.

So I'm out there in the rain today, holding my damn little sign and thinking about what we've accomplished, and how many hours and hours and hours over FIVE YEARS I've spent at marches, doing phone and internet organizing, writing columns (some published in the Globe, Newsweek and USA Today), teaching critical thinking about war to all my students....and thinking about how far we have to go, how much work we have to do.

WHEN this war ends, and it IS a matter of when, some dumb politician - maybe even Clinton or Obama - will get the historical credit. I can live with that. But never forget that we've been the ones, and will continue to be the ones, doing the real work. Here's hoping it doesn't take another five years.

-SW


(Post a new comment)


[info]onebuckfilms
2008-03-19 09:51 pm UTC (link)
To address a few items.

Cost:

- Cost.

A lot. But the Government wastes a great deal more funds elsewhere. Party agnostic.

- Wouded/Dead/Psychological damage.

You speak as if somebody WANTED this. Don't let it be for nothing.

- WMDs

Intelligence foulup. If we knew then what we know now, we would not have gone in. Hindsight is always 20-20. Saddam's behavior was telling us otherwise.

- Pre-existing links in Al-Qaida

I'll grant you this. The claim was theoretical anyway. This was not a primary reason given by my recollection.

- Economy

I fail to see how the economy in a tailspin is actually related to the war. Funding for the war is from the government's funds, and I don't recall a large tax increase to pay for it. Therefore, other factors (junk loans) are more likely causes of this.

And now for the gains:

- Terrorist cells in place of dictator.

Obviously true, and massive tactical errors were made. Leaving immediately, however, would cause a bloodbath that would make current losses look like a paper cut. Anouncing a withdrawal date is simply telling these terrorists how long to wait before the said bloodbath. Instead of 1 Afghanistan, we'll have 2. I await your practical solution.

- Haliburton and Bechtel stock skyrocketing.

Find someone else better equipped for the job. BOTH parties would use these companies.

- Anger at america all-time high.

This is foreign policy, not a popularity contest.

Our mission in Iraq, from even a CURSORY glance, is as follows:

- We are protecting Iraqi citizens and government from AQI and sectarian malitias while both local and national government, police and services are stabilized and secure, and Iraq can defend itself and make it's own national policy.
- We are providing training and civil resources (rebuilding schools, hospitals, power, etc.), along with civic guidance to help Iraq build itself into a stable democracy.

Once we have achieved these two objectives, we have no reason to be there.

Strategies I've heard to "get us out":

1) Leave Iraq immediately:

- Impractical due to logistics involved.
- Iraq, being unsecure, would devolve into Afghanistan 2.0, with sectarian fighting, and Al-Qaida moving in to take over or hide in the chaos.

2) Set a date for leaving:

- Nice in principal, but basically saying "You only have to wait until X date before instigating a massacre".
- After we have left, and the massacres have started, everything turns to item 1.

3) Finish the job we started, and gradually draw down as Iraqi forces gain competency and ability to take over. Our forces phased out, theirs phased in.

Summary:

I believe we are part of the way through 3.

I agree that the loss of life is horrible, but it is obvious that we have to finish what was started.

Whatever side of the "Should we or shoudln't we go into Iraq" argument, that's the mission.

I await your practical solution to this.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

- WMDs
(Anonymous)
2008-03-19 09:58 pm UTC (link)
There was lots of evidence, before the war, that he wasn't a threat. Also the weapon inspectors where verifying everything. Bush then kicked out the inspectors, otherwise his buddies wouldn't have gotten all the no-bid contracts. $$$$
Finish the job?!?
Saddam out of power. Done.
Iraqi people "liberated". Done.
WMDs under control. Done.
New Iraq government created. Done.
U.S. controls the Oil well. Not done.

Lets go home.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: - WMDs - [info]onebuckfilms, 2008-03-20 05:39 am UTC
Re: - WMDs - [info]onebuckfilms, 2008-03-20 04:11 pm UTC

[info]sagawizard
2008-03-19 11:54 pm UTC (link)
3) Finish the job we started, and gradually draw down as Iraqi forces gain competency and ability to take over. Our forces phased out, theirs phased in.
I believe we are part of the way through 3.
I agree that the loss of life is horrible, but it is obvious that we have to finish what was started.
Whatever side of the "Should we or shoudln't we go into Iraq" argument, that's the mission.
I await your practical solution to this



I take issue with your basic premise here, that there is a "job" that can be "done" by our troops if only we stay a little longer.

NOTHING we do is going to create a stable, democratic nation out of what was an artificial country to begin with, drawn up by the British without regards for who lived there and only kept quiescent - and just barely - but overwhelmingly brutal dictatorial force.

You can't have it both ways, [info]onebuckfilms. You can't invoke Afghanistan and say "we can't leave or else Iraq will become Afghanistan II", but ignore the rest of the Afghanistan metaphor: that the Soviets tried for ten years, with a much larger troop commitment than ours, to remake that nation in its own Communist image. They failed miserably, because it wasn't possible. Do you mean to suggest that if the Soviets only "stayed the course" they somehow could have "finished the job"...maybe 20 years later, or 50? I don't buy it. After 10 years, the USSR had bankrupted its coffers and disillusioned an entire generation. The Afghanistan debacle was a contributing factor in the collapse of the whole Soviet way of life.

We have an opportunity, now, to avoid the Soviet Union's fate. We're on the same road, but we can step off. I fear your plan of "finish what is started" will only, in the end, finish OUR country off.

- SW


(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]onebuckfilms, 2008-03-20 03:09 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sagawizard, 2008-03-20 11:19 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]onebuckfilms, 2008-03-20 03:14 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sagawizard, 2008-03-20 04:20 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]onebuckfilms, 2008-03-20 04:25 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sagawizard, 2008-03-20 04:42 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]onebuckfilms, 2008-03-20 04:50 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]turtle_147, 2008-03-21 02:11 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]onebuckfilms, 2008-03-21 04:09 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2008-03-21 04:25 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]turtle_147, 2008-03-21 04:27 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]onebuckfilms, 2008-03-21 04:41 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]turtle_147, 2008-03-21 05:26 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]onebuckfilms, 2008-03-21 08:05 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sagawizard, 2008-03-21 07:45 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]onebuckfilms, 2008-03-21 07:58 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]onebuckfilms, 2008-03-21 09:45 pm UTC
avoiding the USSR fate - [info]vakoriskip, 2008-03-23 02:12 am UTC
Re: avoiding the USSR fate - [info]onebuckfilms, 2008-03-23 03:54 am UTC
Directed toward onebuckfilms
[info]slimsu
2008-03-20 03:48 am UTC (link)
Just an attempt to reply to the items you addressed.

-Cost

The fact that the government wastes a great deal of funds elsewhere doesn't make the 500+ billion spent any better especially since it is such a concentrated waste.

-Wounded/Dead/Psychological damage

He is merely pointing out an additional cost to the war and an ongoing cost which will accumulate the longer we are there.

-WMDs

A primary reason given "known for a fact" for a war which we were rushed into

-Economy

Hundreds of billions of dollars have been spent on this war which will soon turn into at least a trillion dollars while Bush simultaneously cuts taxes to the rich and gives rebates to the people. This money could have been invested in the country or at the very least paid for his dubious tax-cuts.

"Gains"

-Terrorist cells...

Terribly poorly planned and executed war but that doesn't have to be rehashed.

-Oil companies

They are making the money and America is paying record prices for oil.

-Anger at America all time high

Anger directed at America largely affects our foreign policy. Anger contributes to the terrorism acted upon us as well as making relations with other nations more difficult both for foreign policy issues and any other issues we could collaborate with them on. How popular we are matters greatly especially in the foreign policy arena.

-Plan to end the war

Obviously there is no easy solution but we are losing money and soldiers, massive amounts of civilians are being killed, the government we created is rampant with corruption, and we are in large part keeping the peace right now by paying off sections of soldiers who hold no love for us. We won't be able to get the troops out in a day and we don't need to set a date, but we should be thinking about how to get out of Iraq as soon as possible and not how to "tread water" until everything gets all better. The lack of an exit strategy for this war should have been thought about before entering into it and we are frankly unable to do anything about it today. It is time to devote our energies into how to leave rather than how to "win".

(Reply to this)(Thread)

Re: Directed toward onebuckfilms
[info]onebuckfilms
2008-03-20 05:38 am UTC (link)
To leave and lose is far worse. I want out, but not in such a stupid way.

When I start a job, I finish it.

I have PLENTY of issue regarding spending. I pointed it out for a sense of perspective. It costs what it costs.

I take it you want us to loose miserably, be less safe, and make the price paid worth NOTHING.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: Directed toward onebuckfilms - [info]sagawizard, 2008-03-20 11:22 am UTC
Re: Directed toward onebuckfilms - [info]onebuckfilms, 2008-03-20 03:16 pm UTC
Re: Directed toward onebuckfilms - [info]onebuckfilms, 2008-03-20 03:17 pm UTC
Re: Directed toward onebuckfilms - [info]sagawizard, 2008-03-20 04:25 pm UTC
Re: Directed toward onebuckfilms - [info]onebuckfilms, 2008-03-20 04:44 pm UTC
Re: Directed toward onebuckfilms - [info]tightpants4eva, 2008-03-20 01:57 pm UTC
Re: Directed toward onebuckfilms - [info]onebuckfilms, 2008-03-20 04:45 pm UTC
Re: Directed toward onebuckfilms - [info]onebuckfilms, 2008-03-20 05:17 pm UTC
Re: Directed toward onebuckfilms - [info]tightpants4eva, 2008-03-21 02:03 pm UTC
Re: Directed toward onebuckfilms - [info]onebuckfilms, 2008-03-21 04:05 pm UTC
Re: Directed toward onebuckfilms - [info]evilpenguinshan, 2008-03-28 07:37 am UTC
Re: Directed toward onebuckfilms - [info]onebuckfilms, 2008-03-28 07:40 pm UTC
Re: Directed toward onebuckfilms - [info]onebuckfilms, 2008-03-28 07:47 pm UTC
Re: Directed toward onebuckfilms
[info]vakoriskip
2008-03-23 04:49 am UTC (link)
the belief that Iraq had WMDs was shared by many intelligence agencies and diplomats around the world. Most of Congress seemed to think so as well.

You may be aware that it is difficult to prove an absence of an object. Some propose that the equipment/materials have been taken across the border to neighboring Syria.


The argument over starting the war is a masturbatory practice. it started, it's lasted 5 years now, and we need to focus on solutions.

(Reply to this)(Parent)

Lost Privacy
[info]geckoblue
2008-03-21 02:16 am UTC (link)
I know it's hard to list everything we've gained or lost at the cost of this war, but I am surprised no one has really mentioned privacy.

One large piece of what we take for granted as Americans is our privacy. We've lost a piece chunk of our privacy when we allowed our government to snoop further into our lives in the name of anti-terrorism measures.

I'd venture to say this has also sparked our own war to take back our privacy as citizens.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

Re: Lost Privacy
[info]onebuckfilms
2008-03-21 04:12 am UTC (link)
If you've lost privacy (I assume you are talking about wiretapping), then I would have to assume that you are speaking to known terrorist contacts overseas via phone or email.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: Lost Privacy - [info]turtle_147, 2008-03-21 05:27 am UTC
Re: Lost Privacy - [info]onebuckfilms, 2008-03-21 05:57 am UTC
Re: Lost Privacy - [info]onebuckfilms, 2008-03-21 05:59 am UTC
Re: Lost Privacy - [info]1whogoesbe4, 2008-03-27 05:55 am UTC
Re: Lost Privacy - [info]onebuckfilms, 2008-03-27 03:14 pm UTC
Re: Lost Privacy
[info]vakoriskip
2008-03-23 02:14 am UTC (link)
how has your privacy, or anyone you know first hand, been invaded and maliciously been used by the government? I would truly like to know. And please don't quote news stories, only first hand accounts.


(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: Lost Privacy - [info]geckoblue, 2008-03-23 06:21 am UTC
Re: Lost Privacy - [info]vakoriskip, 2008-03-23 06:57 am UTC
Re: Lost Privacy - [info]onebuckfilms, 2008-03-23 05:49 pm UTC
Re: Lost Privacy - [info]geckoblue, 2008-03-24 05:43 am UTC
Re: Lost Privacy - [info]onebuckfilms, 2008-03-24 03:14 pm UTC

[info]oryhara_emo
2008-03-21 03:33 am UTC (link)
Ron Paul wants to remove troops immediately.

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]onebuckfilms
2008-03-21 04:13 am UTC (link)
Ron Paul has next to no votes.

He has little relevence to either of us.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]sagawizard
2008-03-21 07:48 pm UTC (link)

As this debate seems to make evident, whoever becomes president is going to have a huge challenge not making a chunk of the country feel betrayed, either by committing to an indefinite stay in Iraq or by leaving.

From a sheer "where will I get more support" perspective, a majority of Americans want a withdrawal, so if politicians act like politicians always have, I'm optimistic for that outcome.

- SW

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]onebuckfilms
2008-03-22 03:38 am UTC (link)
This may well be the case. Even if we started leaving today, it would take at least a year to get out.

I'm not looking forward to the horror if we leave prematurely.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

"Winning" or "finishing" this war... - [info]trask_incarnate, 2008-03-22 04:56 am UTC
Re: "Winning" or "finishing" this war... - [info]onebuckfilms, 2008-03-22 05:24 am UTC
Re: "Winning" or "finishing" this war... - [info]boony31705, 2008-03-22 07:05 pm UTC
Re: "Winning" or "finishing" this war... - [info]onebuckfilms, 2008-03-22 10:55 pm UTC
Re: "Winning" or "finishing" this war... - (Anonymous), 2008-03-22 11:03 pm UTC
Re: "Winning" or "finishing" this war... - [info]onebuckfilms, 2008-03-22 11:34 pm UTC
Re: "Winning" or "finishing" this war... - [info]boony31705, 2008-03-22 11:19 pm UTC
Re: "Winning" or "finishing" this war... - [info]onebuckfilms, 2008-03-22 11:39 pm UTC
Re: "Winning" or "finishing" this war... - [info]boony31705, 2008-03-23 01:03 am UTC
Re: "Winning" or "finishing" this war... - [info]onebuckfilms, 2008-03-23 01:21 am UTC
Re: "Winning" or "finishing" this war... - (Anonymous), 2008-03-23 01:52 am UTC
Re: "Winning" or "finishing" this war... - [info]boony31705, 2008-03-23 02:08 am UTC
Re: "Winning" or "finishing" this war... - [info]onebuckfilms, 2008-03-23 03:33 am UTC
Re: "Winning" or "finishing" this war... - [info]boony31705, 2008-03-23 07:24 am UTC

[info]stone5150
2008-03-22 04:18 pm UTC (link)
Worst case scenario for staying. Theory.
Bloodbath if we leave. Theory.

Best case scenario - remove occupation army from guerrila war, install highly mobile strike forces and advisors. There is no need to provide the insurgants with targets, only a need to surpress uprisings til the country stablizes. There is a low probability of stabilization with a huge and expensive occupation army of US soldiers on Iraqi soil.

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]onebuckfilms
2008-03-22 05:03 pm UTC (link)
Sounds like a good plan. We also need to continue training Iraqi forces so that they can hold their own (that par we're doing I believe).

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]stone5150, 2008-03-22 06:32 pm UTC
reminder about targets...
[info]vakoriskip
2008-03-23 02:24 am UTC (link)
the terrorist target their own people.. Most of the iraqi horrible deaths have been actually caused by "friendly fire" - with friends like this who needs enemies...


(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: reminder about targets... - [info]stone5150, 2008-03-23 06:25 pm UTC
Re: reminder about targets... - [info]vakoriskip, 2008-03-23 07:10 pm UTC
Re: reminder about targets... - [info]stone5150, 2008-03-23 07:34 pm UTC
Re: reminder about targets... - [info]vakoriskip, 2008-03-23 07:46 pm UTC
Re: reminder about targets... - [info]sagawizard, 2008-03-23 08:16 pm UTC
Re: reminder about targets... - [info]vakoriskip, 2008-03-23 08:48 pm UTC
Re: reminder about targets... - [info]onebuckfilms, 2008-03-24 05:48 pm UTC
Thank you.
[info]boony31705
2008-03-22 06:22 pm UTC (link)
I must admit, that my only source for having learned of bush lying about W.O.M.D. was from a PBS documentary that unfortunatly, I cant even remember the name of now BUT since then, Ive seen enough in the news and heard enough from others that even if I havent seen that documentary, I would see both the wisdom and need to question what were doin over there. I wont say that wars should never be fought BUT what I will say is that wars should never be fought or even begun just to gain power and/or status such as this one has been. I have long contended that george bush jr. just wanted to finish what his daddy started back in the '90's and he did that when he indirectly became the instrument of saddam hassain's death......and I will even contend that saddam needed to be put down like the rabid dog he was.....BUT I will just as much contend that with our military training and our spy network....we could have accomplished this with not one loss of either an american life and/or the lives of any foreign folk.....with the exception of hassain, of course. Something else that upsets me greatly is the foolish contention of the american sheeple, that is to say, those who blindly support this or any other war, that in order to support our soldiers, you have to support this war and/or our fool of a president which to my way of thinking is completely bullshit. It aint a war and it aint a president that defines a soldier. Any given soldier is defined first by who they are as a person and then by how honorably they serve. Good luck in doing your part to end this tragedy that we call a war for freedom. It never should have begun.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

Re: Thank you. - [info]1whogoesbe4, 2008-03-27 06:07 am UTC
Re: Thank you. - [info]onebuckfilms, 2008-03-27 03:32 pm UTC
Re: Thank you. - [info]boony31705, 2008-03-27 06:24 pm UTC
in response to boony31705...... - [info]sargentbob, 2008-03-30 10:03 pm UTC
Re: in response to boony31705...... - (Anonymous), 2008-03-30 11:24 pm UTC
Re: in response to boony31705...... - [info]sargentbob, 2008-03-31 02:24 am UTC
the real work...
[info]vakoriskip
2008-03-23 02:04 am UTC (link)
... is done by our men and women in uniform - god bless and keep them - who allow us the freedom to protest to our heart's content.

An achievement you neglected is the better strategic position the US has in the likely case that a crazy middle-eastern regime decides to start the next world war.

I believe the course of the war is independent of who becomes president. Even Obama just a few days ago said that most likely some US forces will remain in Iraq after redeployment. McCain is telling us the hard truth. In the same way we still have bases in Japan & Germany 53 years after the end of that big war, our presence in Iraq may last a long time.

Our democracy has been in the works more than 230 years, and is still struggling (see the debacle in the Democratic party primaries, which may in the next few months turn real ugly - imagine the super delegates support of Clinton over the popularly voted Obama). How about give the Iraqi's a few more years of our support in their struggle to lift themselves out of a cruel dictatorship. And let's continue fighting our terrorist enemies on their own turf, instead of in Manhattan.

Respectfully, V A Koriski

(Reply to this)(Thread)

Re: the real work... - [info]onebuckfilms, 2008-03-23 04:20 am UTC
btw - hatred of the usa
[info]vakoriskip
2008-03-23 02:22 am UTC (link)
seems to be stronger among the leftists in the US than around the world. Last time I checked, there was no other country which so many aspired to immigrate to. The state department has had to hire extra manpower to process the growing amount of applications.

I suggest a few questions to ask yourself and answer publicly or privately:


which country do you believe is pursuing a foreign policy you agree with and can support?

would you prefer being a citizen of that country or the USA?

overall - do you think the USA has been a positive or negative force in the world since 1776?

(Reply to this)(Thread)

Re: btw - hatred of the usa - [info]onebuckfilms, 2008-03-23 03:51 am UTC
Re: btw - hatred of the usa - [info]onebuckfilms, 2008-03-23 04:07 am UTC
Re: btw - hatred of the usa - [info]vakoriskip, 2008-03-23 04:43 am UTC
Re: btw - hatred of the usa - [info]onebuckfilms, 2008-03-23 07:43 am UTC
Re: btw - hatred of the usa - [info]1whogoesbe4, 2008-03-27 06:07 am UTC
Re: btw - hatred of the usa - [info]onebuckfilms, 2008-03-27 03:20 pm UTC

[info]sagawizard
2008-03-23 08:21 pm UTC (link)

I have to say I've been very entertained by all of the back-and-forth I've seen in regards to my original post. It's been interesting to read.

I want to pose a question to any of the folks who have been posting here: no matter who gets elected in September, their foreign policy is going to infuriate some of the people on this list. By sheer weight of numbers, more people want the troops to come home than want them to stay, but who knows, if the promised scenes of chaos happen, that may shift.

My question is this: Is there any way the candidate elected could still be considered worthy of your loyalty even if he/she pursues an Iraq policy that is counter to the one you want? In other words, is the issue of Iraq doomed to irrepairably divide our country for the forseeable future, or is there some way he/she could still unify us?

-SW

(Reply to this)(Thread)

whoever becomes president.. - [info]vakoriskip, 2008-03-23 08:51 pm UTC
Re: whoever becomes president.. - [info]onebuckfilms, 2008-03-24 03:51 pm UTC
and... - [info]vakoriskip, 2008-03-23 08:55 pm UTC
Re: and... - [info]onebuckfilms, 2008-03-24 03:52 pm UTC
Unification ? Maybe. - (Anonymous), 2008-03-27 06:33 pm UTC

[info]etopiaboy
2008-03-25 07:46 pm UTC (link)
as i am no longer enlisted i can say, go read my last blog and try and tell me that it was for a "pseudo-democracy"..and maybe you can introduce me to people who are more afraid of terrorism now then ever before..because i've yet to meet a single person in the united states, not living in a hole, who's more scared now then before..

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]1whogoesbe4, 2008-03-27 06:18 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]onebuckfilms, 2008-03-27 03:22 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]onebuckfilms, 2008-03-27 03:28 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]onebuckfilms, 2008-03-27 04:42 pm UTC

[info]neispace
2008-03-26 05:41 am UTC (link)
I don't know. If anything, this really is a minor war in terms of scope and impact. If you want a more horrific waste of lives, World War 1 both in execution and in aftermath not only affected an entire generation, it bred the conditions for Hitler's rise to power due to oddly enough, the sort of multinational coalition that most people think is the answer to current problems.

Multiply the number of soldiers dead by a little over 4 times. That's how many american troops were lost in one engagement in world war 2, the battle of the bulge. 506 billion dollars? WW2 cost a trillion dollars 60+ years ago.

You mention vietnam, but it's stability was only due to the communists choosing to embrace free market reforms. What you forget is that shortly after Vietnam invaded cambodia, and even before that there was even greater amounts of refugees due to botched forced collectivization, and the general incompetency of most communistic/despotic forms of government.

I'm sorry, but using statistics as a means of pointing to the injustice of the iraq war has very little meaning simply because it has been very limited in terms of scope and impact. There has been no general draft, no rationing, no sizable economic downturn due solely to it. The lives lost and displaced are comparable to the those caused by the Bosnian war, and yet i have yet to see any antiwar protestor condemn the UN and the USA for choosing to intervene in this situation.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]sagawizard, 2008-03-26 11:15 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]neispace, 2008-03-26 05:13 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sagawizard, 2008-03-26 06:28 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]onebuckfilms, 2008-03-26 09:31 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sagawizard, 2008-03-26 09:39 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]onebuckfilms, 2008-03-26 10:14 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sagawizard, 2008-03-26 10:21 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]onebuckfilms, 2008-03-26 10:35 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sagawizard, 2008-03-26 10:38 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]onebuckfilms, 2008-03-26 11:00 pm UTC

[info]evilpenguinshan
2008-03-27 09:33 pm UTC (link)
This war won